====================================================================== CFJ 923 "Player favor either did not legally require a transfer of one P-Note in eir message to the Promotor herein reproduced as Exhibit A, or if e did so that transfer did not cause a Petition Fee to be paid." ====================================================================== Judge: Swann Justices: Michael (C), Steve (S), Antimatter (J) Judgement: FALSE Eligible: Andre, Antimatter, Blob, Chuck, Crito, Elde, elJefe, (favor), General Chaos, Harlequin, KoJen, Michael, Murphy, Steve, Swann, Zefram Not eligible: Caller: Morendil Barred: - Disqualified: Vanyel, favor On hold: OerJan ====================================================================== History: Called by Morendil, Thu, 8 May 1997 01:40:32 +0100 Assigned to Swann, Mon, 19 May 1997 09:08:36 +0100 Judged FALSE, Wed, 21 May 1997 17:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Published, Thu, 22 May 1997 09:09:28 +0100 Appealed by Morendil, Thu, 22 May 1997 07:50:38 +0200 Appealed by General Chaos, Thu, 22 May 1997 12:11:24 -0500 Appealed by Oerjan, Sat, 24 May 1997 03:58:14 +0200 (MET DST) Appealed by Crito, Fri, 23 May 1997 22:22:30 -0400 Appeals process begins, Wed, 28 May 1997 11:03:40 +0100 Steve SUSTAINS, Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:21:17 +1000 (EST) Michael SUSTAINS, Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:31:52 +0100 favor defaults Antimatter selected as new Justice, Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:09:29 +0100 Antimatter SUSTAINS, Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:13:15 -0800 Published, Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:15:18 +0100 ====================================================================== Appeals decisions: Speaker: In the matter of the Appeal of CFJ 923, my ruling is to SUSTAIN Swann's Judgement. It might be thought that R1527 ('Timing of Multiple Events in One Message') conflicts with R1596, and takes precedence over it, by virtue both of lower Number, and of the deference clause in R1596. But the appearance of conflict between the two Rules is illusory. R1527 states that: Whenever a message contains more than one notification, report, or other communication in which the Rules place some legal significance, the communications in that message shall be taken to have been sent sequentially, separated by infinitesimal increments of time, in the order which they appear in the message. Now for our purposes, we can regard Favor's messages as containing two communications of legal significance. The second is uncontroversially a Proposal submission. We are concerned here with the first: what is it? I quote from the Evidence section: >Evidence: > >Player favor's message to the Public Forum : > >[Headers, introductory material omitted] > >OK, various people said they'd be in favor of this, so here it is. I >hereby transfer one of my measly five P-Notes to the Bank for the >purposes of Proposing this here thing (I do so immediately *after* >submitting the Proposal, as required by 1702). This seems to me a special, but still quite familiar, kind of transfer: a delayed transfer. Now, under most circumstances, R1598 ('Currency Transfers Mandated by Players') makes delayed transfers illegal. So strictly speaking, Swann is wrong to assert that R1596 allows Players to specify later times (than the time of reporting) for transfers to take place. R1596 tries to allow this, but in almost all cases R1598 prohibits it. But in this case we have a rare exception. For Favor's delay is only infinitesimal, and according to game custom, events separated by infinitesimal amounts of time happen, in some sense, at the same time, (although in a particular order). At any rate, Favor's delay does not violate R1598 because it does not require the P-note transfer to take place at some time other than the time at which Favor reported it. What we have then in Favor's message, is this: a perfectly legal delayed transfer, followed (an infinitesimal amount of time later, in accordance with R1527) by a perfectly legal Proposal submission. And the effect of this message is to submit the Proposal, and then, immediately after (an infinitesimal amount of time later, I suppose it must be) pay the Petition Fee for it. So the Statement is FALSE, as Swann Judged, Speaker Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Clerk of the Courts: I SUSTAIN the Judgement in CFJ 923 Justice Steve's decision sets the standard here: His close reading of the rules relating to timing make it clear that one can delay Currency Transfers within a message so that the Transfer can happen after any other part of the message. This makes favor's attempt to make a delayed Currency Transfer successful, and the statement of the CFJ FALSE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pro-Justiciar (Antimatter): I vote to SUSTAIN the original judgement, because I, frankly, have no idea what the truth is, but both Michael and Steve voted to sustain, and they probably know more about this than I do. Yes, that is very flimsy reasoning. ====================================================================== Judgement: FALSE Reasons and arguments: The entire argument here rests on a question of timing, and if it occurred that favor transferred the P-Note after eir proposal submission, as required. The relevant Rule here is not Rule 1527, timing of Multiple Events, but Rule 1596, which covers Currency Transfers in general. Specifically, the following clause from that Rule; "Such a transfer takes place at the time specified by the Entity which requires the transfer, or, if no time is specified, at the time when the Entity first begins to require the transfer." I take this as permitting Players to specify later times for such transfers to take place, thus allowing favor to specify a later time for a P-Note transfer. ====================================================================== Evidence: Rule 1596/1 (Power=1) Currency Transfers, generally The Rules have the power to require the transfer of Currencies; no other Entity also has this power unless explicitly granted it by the Rules, and then only to the extent granted by the Rules. No Entity other than the Rules themselves has the power to require any transfer which would result in the Treasury being transferred from containing a negative quantity of the Currency transferred. Whenever an Entity requires a transfer of Currencies to take place, the transfer takes place as required, provided that the Entity which is requiring the transfer is permitted by the Rules to require that transfer, and provided that the transfer is otherwise permitted by the Rules. Such a transfer takes place at the time specified by the Entity which requires the transfer, or, if no time is specified, at the time when the Entity first begins to require the transfer. This Rule takes precedence over any Rule which would permit or require a transfer prohibited by this Rule. When another Rule would prohibit some transfer permitted by this Rule, this Rule defers to that Rule with respect to that transfer. ====================================================================== (Caller's) Arguments: Reasoning: Player favor _first_ attempted to make the transfer, _then_ submitted eir Proposal, in the same message. But Rule 1702 requires the transfer to be made after the Proposal is submitted. E apparently anticipated this would be a problem, since e stated that this transfer was to occur at a later time, namely after eir Proposal submission. But 1598 states that a Player-mandated transfer must be reported at the same time that it is effected, any other requirement making the transfer illegal. Thus the conclusions of the Statement. Evidence: Player favor's message to the Public Forum : [Headers, introductory material omitted] OK, various people said they'd be in favor of this, so here it is. I hereby transfer one of my measly five P-Notes to the Bank for the purposes of Proposing this here thing (I do so immediately *after* submitting the Proposal, as required by 1702). [Proposal text, rest of message omitted] Rule 1598/1 (Power=1) Currency Transfers Mandated by Players Players are empowered to require the transfer of Currencies, subject to the following limitations: a) the Player requiring the transfer is the Executor of the Owner of the Treasury from which the Currency is being transferred, b) the Player requiring the transfer reports the transfer to the Recordkeepor of the Currency transferred, and c) the Player requires the transfer to take place at the time e reports it. No Player-required transfer may take place at any time other than the time at which it is reported. This Rule takes precedence over any Rule which would allow a Player to require a transfer prohibited by this Rule. Rule 1702/0 (Power=1) Petition Fee for Proposals All Proposals other than Disinterested Proposals have associated with them a Petition fee. This fee must be paid to the Bank between the submission of the Proposal and its distribution, otherwise the Proposal shall become Disinterested, as specified in other Rules. This fee must be made by sending a message to the Promotor, unambiguously specifying the Proposal whose fee is being paid, and ordering the transfer of the required P-Notes specifically for that Proposal. The Player transferring these P-Notes must have at least as many P-Notes as e is attempting to transfer, or no transfer of P-Notes is made, nor is the fee paid. The Petition fee for any Proposal is one P-Note unless another Rule specifies a higher fee. This rule takes precedence over any Rule that would require a lower fee, no fee, or a fee paid in Currency other than P-Notes, for Proposals that are not Disinterested. Rule 1527/2 (Power=1) Timing of Multiple Events in One Message Whenever a message contains more than one notification, report, or other communication in which the Rules place some legal significance, the communications in that message shall be taken to have been sent sequentially, separated by infinitesimal increments of time, in the order which they appear in the message. ======================================================================