>From nomic-official-owner@teleport.com Fri Nov 10 04:00:13 1995 Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.21]) by Shamino.quincy.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA07722 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 04:00:10 -0600 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA05256 for nomic-official-outgoing; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 01:53:19 -0800 Received: from wing4.wing.rug.nl (wing4.wing.rug.nl [129.125.21.4]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA05216 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 01:53:11 -0800 Message-Id: <199511100953.BAA05216@desiree.teleport.com> Received: by wing4.wing.rug.nl (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA16411; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 10:51:17 +0100 >From: Andre Engels Subject: OFF: CFJ 827 Judgement: TRUE To: nomic-official@teleport.com Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 10:51:17 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-nomic-official@teleport.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com Status: RO ====================================================================== ASSIGNMENT CFJ 827 Player Favor violated 1497 when he posted to the Public Forum the message entitled "Apothecary's Romance". ====================================================================== Judge: elJefe Judgement: Eligible: Andre, Chuck, Coco, Dave Bowen, elJefe, favor, KoJen, Michael, Morendil, SaltWater, Steve, Vanyel, Zefram Not Eligible: Caller: Oerjan Barred: On Hold: Effects: elJefe gains 5 Points for speedy Judgement favor must issue a Formal Apology ====================================================================== History: Called by Oerjan, 8 Nov 1995, 17:11 +0100 (MET) Assigned to elJefe, 8 Nov 1995, 17:50 MET Judged TRUE by elJefe, 9 Nov 1995, 12:47 -0500 ====================================================================== Arguments: none ====================================================================== Judgement: TRUE Reasons: |favor| claims the statements in the message (EXHIBIT A) were not "presented as correct", since the Subject line "Apothecary's Romance" should have alerted us to the fact that the statements were not factual. I reject this, as common sense and Game Custom require at least an initial presumption that an unadorned statement, without preamble or explanation, is to be taken at face value. Several players did so take it (though believing it mistaken), and if it had been something else, e.g. a Mark transfer, it could have taken effect regardless of the Subject line. It would be possible to judge FALSE if |favor| merely posted the statements with reckless disregard as to their truth or falsity. However, the judge's Examination of the Defendant indicates that this was not the case. Others have tried to claim that an attempted game move is not the same as "presenting information". I reject this also. A statement of the form "I hereby cause a transfer ..." certainly presents information to the Recordkeepors for whatever currency is involved. Again, had this been a legal transfer, it could have taken effect. It would take place at the time it is "reported" (Rule 1472). It's hard to see how one can "report" a transaction without "presenting information." This is not to say that all attempted illegal moves are violations of 1497. Only those in which the initiator emself disbelieved the information reported. ---------------------------------------- Injunction: Tempering Justice with Mercy, I decline to issue any Injunction containing Prescribed Words for the required Formal Apology. The Formal Apology is required, but the words I leave up to the ingenuity and creativity of the Defendant. - elJefe, Judge ====================================================================== Evidence: > > Huh? What? Did I miss another Loophole or are you just making fun? > > Apologies if I went over the top on this one! People just > kept saying during the Rule 101 discussions things like > "You can say '1000 EVs are hereby transfered to me' in > the PF if you want, but nothing happens." I thought I'd > give it a try, just in case... *8) > | favor | ====================================================================== Additional Evidence, added by Judge: Rule 1497/0 (Mutable, MI=1) Truth in Advertising No Player shall present, as correct, information which e believes to be incorrect in any of the following: -a post to the Public Forum -evidence in a COE, CFJ, or Judgement -a response to a request for information which the Player is required to provide. History: Created by Proposal 1667, Aug. 18 1995 ---------------------------------------- EXHIBIT A: Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 09:36:09 EST >From: "David M. Chess" To: nomic-business@teleport.com Subject: BUS: Apothecary's Romance I hereby cause 217 Extra Votes to be created and transferred to me. I hereby cause the right to cast up to nine votes on any and all Proposals to be granted to me. Gad, what a feeling of power! *8) | favor | ---------------------------------------- EXHIBIT B: >From: Andre Engels Subject: Re: BUS: Apothecary's Romance To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 15:41:30 MET > > I hereby cause 217 Extra Votes to be created and transferred > to me. I hereby cause the right to cast up to nine votes > on any and all Proposals to be granted to me. > > Gad, what a feeling of power! *8) > > | favor | > Huh? What? Did I miss another Loophole or are you just making fun? Andre (confused) ---------------------------------------- EXHIBIT C: Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 10:43:28 EST >From: "David M. Chess" To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com Subject: re: BUS: Apothecary's Romance > Huh? What? Did I miss another Loophole or are you just making fun? Apologies if I went over the top on this one! People just kept saying during the Rule 101 discussions things like "You can say '1000 EVs are hereby transfered to me' in the PF if you want, but nothing happens." I thought I'd give it a try, just in case... *8) | favor | ---------------------------------------- Examination of the Defendant: Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:23:04 -0500 >From: jlc (Jeff Caruso) To: chess@watson.ibm.com Subject: Re: OFF: CFJ 827 Assignment: elJefe Cc: jlc Greetings, David! I've been assigned as Judge in this CFJ, which alleges that you broke Rule 1497. I have received your argument posted subsequently in the Public Forum; thank you. It is relevant to ask your state of mind when you posted the following message: > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 09:36:09 EST > From: "David M. Chess" > To: nomic-business@teleport.com > Subject: BUS: Apothecary's Romance > > I hereby cause 217 Extra Votes to be created and transferred > to me. I hereby cause the right to cast up to nine votes > on any and all Proposals to be granted to me. > > Gad, what a feeling of power! *8) > > | favor | I invite you to give evidence on this matter. Specifically, when you posted the message, which is it most accurate to say: A) you believed that you thereby caused the actions mentioned, B) you disbelieved this, or C) you posted the statements without believing or disbelieving this, that is without regard to the truth of the statements. If I've missed a possibility please let me know. Regards, - elJefe, Judge ****************************************************************** Dr. Jeffrey L. Caruso Information International >From chess@watson.ibm.com Wed Nov 8 14:05:51 1995 Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 14:05:17 EST >From: "David M. Chess" To: jlc@triple-i.com Cc: jlc@Camex.COM Thank you, your honor, for your careful consideration of my case! In answer to your question, statement (B) is the most accurate, in that if pressed I would have agreed with the view that my posting did not cause the actions mentioned, at least not within the context of Agora Nomic. I hurl myself upon the mercy of the Court... | favor, the Accused | ----------------------------------------