>From nomic-official-owner@teleport.com Fri Jul 21 01:08:52 1995 Return-Path: nomic-official-owner@teleport.com Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.11]) by Shamino.quincy.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA01246 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 00:55:38 -0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id WAA00179 for nomic-official-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:54:57 -0700 Received: from audumla.students.wisc.edu (students.wisc.edu [144.92.104.66]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA00145 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 22:54:43 -0700 Received: from [144.92.181.90] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id AAA40020; 8.6.9W/42; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 00:51:59 -0500 X-NUPop-Charset: English Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 00:49:35 CST >From: "Charles E. Carroll" Message-Id: <2984.ccarroll@students.wisc.edu> To: nomic-official@teleport.com Subject: OFF: Judgement of CFJ 791 Sender: owner-nomic-official@teleport.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com Status: RO Judgement of CFJ 791 Zefram receives 5 points for speedy Judgement. ============================================================== CFJ 791 Caller: Kelly Statement: The Assessor's Report of 12 July 1995 is in error, in that it listed several Players as having cast extra Votes on various Proposals, when in fact it is not legally permitted for any Player whatsoever to cast an extra Vote. Barred: elJefe, Steve Requested Injunction: none Judge: Zefram Judgement: FALSE Injunction: none Effects reported by COTC (* indicates new to this report): *Zefram receives 5 points for speedy Judgement. ============================================================= ============================================================= History: Called by Kelly, July 18 1995, 03:06 EST5 Assigned to TAL, July 18 1995, 13:55 UTC Assigned to Zefram, July 19 1995, 06:28 UTC Judged FALSE by Zefram, Thu, 20 Jul 1995 21:27:50 +0100 (BST) Judgement published {as of this message} ============================================================== Arguments of Caller (Kelly): Rule 206/3 allows a Player to cast "any votes in addition to an Player's first vote [...] by the casting of Extra Votes, as specified in other Rules." however, there is no Rule which allows a Player to "cast" "Extra Votes". a Player may (Rule 1442/5) "use" "Extra Votes" to cast "extra Votes". I believe that the capitalization is _very_ significant. that's not casting "Extra Votes", but rather "extra Votes". Extra Votes are a Currency, while extra Votes are Votes above and beyond the first Vote granted by 206. Rule 206 specifically requires that the casting of extra Votes may only be achieved by the casting of Extra Votes--and yet, as I have said, there is no procedure for casting Extra Votes. I am not even sure what it might mean to cast a Currency on a Proposal. Rule 754 cannot apply in this case, as 754 only applies when an error does not introduce an ambiguity, and I believe that a change of capitalization of the word "Extra" in Rule 206 would completely change the meaning of this Rule, so it seems quite clear to me that the error _does_ introduce an ambiguity of meaning. Since there is no legal means specified in the Rules for the casting of Extra Votes upon Proposals, no Player may cast a vote beyond the first granted by Rule 206. The Assessor's allegation that various Players did legally cast extra Votes is therefore in error. Therefore, the 1 extra Vote supposedly cast by elJefe, and the 3 extra Votes supposedly cast by Steve, on Proposal 1612, are invalid, and therefore this Proposal fails 4 to 7; and the 1 extra Vote supposedly cast by Swann on Proposal 1613 is invalid, and therefore this Proposal passes 8 to 3. ============================================================== Arguments of Judge (Zefram): Rule 206/3 states: ... The casting of any votes in addition to a Player's first vote may only be achieved by the casting of Extra Votes, as specified in other Rules. I interpret this as defining "Extra Votes" as a class of Nomic Entities that is a subclass of the class "Votes". Extra Votes consequently have some of the characteristics of Votes, including that they may be "cast" on Proposals. The casting of Votes (including Extra Votes) on Proposals has certain well-defined effects described elsewhere in the rules, particularly in Rule 955/2. The fact that Extra Votes are also a Currency, while Votes are not, is entirely irrelevant to this. Hence the application of the word "use" to Extra Votes in Rule 1442/5 is unambiguous, as casting is the only way to use Votes, including Extra Votes. It is possible to cast Extra Votes on a Proposal, because they are Votes. ============================================================== Evidence presented by Caller (Kelly): I. Rule 206/3 II. Rule 1442/5 III. Rule 754/0 IV. Assessor's Report of 12 July 1995 V. Claim of Error on Exhibit IV VI. elJefe's Denial of COE (exhibit V) -------I. Rule 206/3 (Mutable, MI=1) Players and Votes Each Player has two votes per Proposal, unless another Rule specifically says otherwise, and no Player shall have more than five votes on any Proposal, regardless of what any other Rule may say to the contrary. The casting of any votes in addition to a Player's first vote may only be achieved by the casting of Extra Votes, as specified in other Rules. History: Initial Mutable Rule 206, Jun. 30 1993 Amended(1) by Proposal 1479, Mar. 15 1995 Amended(2) by Proposal 1553, Apr. 14 1995 Amended(3) by Proposal 1565, Apr. 28 1995 -------II. Rule 1442/5 (Mutable, MI=1) Using Extra Votes Provided that e possesses sufficient Extra Votes, a Player may use them to cast extra Votes on a Proposal up to the maximum allowed to them for that Proposal, as specified in other Rules. History: Created by Proposal 1479, Mar. 15 1995 Amended(1) by Proposal 1533, Mar. 24 1995 Amended(2) by Proposal 1538, Apr. 4 1995 Amended(3) by Proposal 1544, Apr. 14 1995 Amended(4) by Proposal 1565, Apr. 28 1995 Amended(5) by Proposal 1601, Jun. 19 1995 -------III. Rule 754/0 (Mutable, MI=1) Spelling and Grammar Errors Differences in spelling, grammar, or dialect, or the substitution of a word or phrase by a synonym or abbreviation, are inconsequential in all forms of Nomic communication, as long as there is no ambiguity in meaning. In other words, the meaning or validity of such communication is not altered in any way by such discrepancies. (*Was: 435*) -------IV. Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.11]) by copper.ucs.indiana.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id JAA16717 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:16:39 -0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id HAA15532 for nomic-official- outgoing; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 07:04:33 -0700 Received: from torii (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA15512 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 07:04:28 -0700 Received: from Camex.COM (Camex.COM [134.54.1.1]) by torii (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA26669 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 07:03:54 -0700 Received: from zeus.Camex.COM by Camex.COM (4.1/SMI-4.2) id AA09409; Wed, 12 Jul 95 10:03:50 EDT Received: by zeus.Camex.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA01346; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:03:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:03:12 -0400 >From: jlc@camex.Camex.COM (Jeff Caruso) Message-Id: <9507121403.AA01346@zeus.Camex.COM> To: nomic-official@teleport.com Subject: OFF: Report on COE, and Corrected Assessor's Report Sender: owner-nomic-official@teleport.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com COE Accepted. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve claimed: > I Claim that the above Assessor's Report is in Error, in that Proposal > 1612 passed. > > Argument: > > I intend to argue that Proposal 1612 actually had an AI of 1, not 2, and > hence that the Proposal passed. The argument is an argument from precedent. > For consider CFJ 779, which I include here in full, with the arguments > presented by Caller Chuck and Judge Michael: [CFJ 779, and Rule 1453 deleted] > It should be apparent that Rule 1453 contains precisely the same faulty > language that Chuck noticed in Rule 1466. So a consistent application > of the Judgement in CFJ 779 assigns to Proposal 1612 an AI of 1, not > 2. Since the Proposal received 8 votes in favour and 7 against, the > Proposal passes. Steve is quite correct. The wordings are precisely the same, and Michael's ruling in Chuck's CFJ 779 should apply to Proposal 1612. Therefore, I issue the following corrected Assessor's report: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Assessor's Report, Mon Jul 10 15:34:45 EDT 1995, for Proposals 1608-1618, as corrected July, 1995 and July 12, 1995. ============================================================================= Num. AI Proposer Title RESULT 1608 JonRock Clean Up the F-A Rule FAILS 1-7 (4) 1609 JonRock Encourage EV Expenditure FAILS 0-8 (4) 1610 JonRock I'm Sick And Tired...This Typo PASSES 6-2 (4) 1611 [1] JonRock Award JonRock the OoM FAILS 0-11 (1) 1612 [1] Steve Steve the Machiavellian PASSES 8-7 (1) 1613 Swann Fix 1440 PASSES 9-3 (1) 1614 Steve A Coercive Proposal (!) NOT A PROPOSAL 1615 Steve Another Coercive Proposal NOT A PROPOSAL 1616 Andre Send a Condoleance to Thring FAILS 4-6 (2) 1617 Steve Bring back EV scarcity PASSES 7-3 (2) 1618 [2] Steve Definition of 'Active Player' PASSES 10-1 (1) Note: the quorum for 1608-1618 was 8. Proposals 1608-1609 were disowned. No voting points or proposer penalties are given for these proposals. 1614 was declared "not a Proposal" by CFJ 786. 1615 is treated identically. No voting points or proposer penalties are given for these, nor are the results reported. Interestingly, _none_ of the Powers cast turned out to have any effect, except for the Influence(4) power Steve cast on himself. Proposals 1611-1612 actually had an A.I. of 1, consistent with the ruling in CFJ 779. ============================================================================= Result of Proposals 1608-1618 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 8 9 0 1 2 3 6 7 8 Bowen A A A A A A A A A Brian F A F A A F - F F Chuck A A - A A A A A F ElJefe A A - A 2F F A F F Kelly - - F A A F A A F KoJen A A F A A A F - F Michael - - - - - - - - - Steve A A F A 4F F A F F Swann - - - A A 2F F F F TAL A A A A F F A F F Vanyel - - F A F F F F F Zefram A A F A A F F F F F-A - - 4 -11 1 6 -2 4 9 FOR 1 0 6 0 8 9 4 7 10 AGAINST 7 8 2 11 7 3 6 3 1 ABSTAIN 4 4 4 1 1 1 2 2 1 A.I. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 PASSES? N N Y N Y Y N Y Y *** Scorekeepor, please note: Andre -2 (-2 F-A) Bowen +7 (+7 Voting) Brian +7 (+7 Voting) Chuck +57 (+7 Voting +50 Oracle 1612) ElJefe +7 (+7 Voting) JonRock -6 (-7 F-A +1 Short 1610) Kelly +7 (+7 Voting) KoJen -43 (+7 Voting -50 Oracle 1612) Michael +7 (+7 Voting) Steve +33 (+14 F-A +2 PP 1617 +2 PP 1618 +5 Repeal 1617 +1 Short 1612 +1 Short 1617 +1 Short 1618 +7 Voting) Swann +13 (+6 F-A +7 Voting) TAL +7 (+7 Voting) Vanyel +7 (+7 Voting) Zefram +7 (+7 Voting) ============================================================================= Powers Cast: (Card transfers are not shown; the recordkeepor is the Banker.) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 95 11:36:31 CST Chuck cast the Oracle Power on KoJen for Proposal 1612. Date: Sat, 1 Jul 95 11:36:51 CST Chuck cast one Quiet Power on Kelly, for Proposal 1612. Date: Sun, 2 Jul 95 04:31:25 CST Chuck cast another Quiet Power on Dave Bowen for Proposal 1612. Date: Sun, 2 Jul 95 04:55:57 CST Chuck cast one Reversal power on JonRock for Proposal 1611. Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 11:01:39 -0400 KoJen predicts Proposal 1612 will fail. Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:40:01 +1000 (EST) Steve cast the other Reversal power on Andre for Proposal 1612. Steve cast the Influence (4 votes) Power on himself for Proposal 1612. ============================================================================= Extra Votes: Official Report of the Recordkeepor ============================================================================= Name 6/1 6/6 6/12 6/19 7/1 7/10 ========== === === === === === === Andre 5 5 5 4 4 4 Bowen 3 3 3 3 3 3 Brian -- -- -- -- -- 0 Chuck 10 10 15 14 15 18 Coren 12 12 12 12 12 12 elJefe 0 0 0 0 4 4 Ian 0 0 0 0 0 0 JonRock 3 3 3 3 3 3 Kelly 11 11 11 18 18 18 KoJen 6 6 6 6 6 3 Michael 40 40 40 40 36 36 Pascal 3 3 3 3 3 3 Steve 11 11 11 11 11 10 SugarWater -- -- -- 0 0 0 Swann 14 14 14 14 14 14 TAL 6 6 1 1 0 1 Vanyel 4 3 3 2 2 2 Xanadu 2 2 2 2 2 2 Zefram -- -- -- 0 0 0 TOTAL 133 132 132 136 133 133 Number of Players currently Registered: 19 Threshhold for EV creation : 95 ============================================================================= Extra Votes cast: 7/6: Swann FOR 1613 7/9: Steve FOR 1612 7/10: Steve FOR 1612 (two more) 7/10: elJefe FOR 1612 ============================================================================= Transfers since 7/1: 7/9: Steve to TAL: 1 ============================================================================= Other EV changes: 7/10: Under the Oracle Rule, 3 EV's are transferred from KoJen to Chuck. ============================================================================= Correction of Error in Previous Report: TAL's extra vote cast on 6/23 was not destroyed, and so was available to be transferred to Chuck when TAL transferred 1 EV on 6/29. ============================================================================= ============================================================================= Text of Adopted Proposals: --------------------------- Proposal 1610 (JonRock) AI=1 I'm Sick And Tired Of Looking At This Typo (amends a rule) Amend Rule 478 by replacing '"' with '.'. --------------------------- Proposal 1612 (Steve) Steve the Machiavellian The following Directive is hereby adopted: that Steve be awarded the Patent Title of the Order of Machiavelli. --------------------------- PROPOSAL 1613 (Swann) AI=1 Fix 1440 (Amends a Rule) Amend Rule 1440/0 to read as follows: A Player may Erase eir Blots by spending five Points for each Blot Erased. A Player may Erase any number of Blots as long as e does not reduce eir Point total below zero. A Player with less than five Points may not Erase Blots. The Player must notify both the Scorekeepor and the Tabulator, in the Public Forum, of the number of Blots e is erasing, and the number of Points e is spending to do so. If this requires more Points than the Player has at the time of the request, then no Blots are erased, and no Points are lost. If there are sufficient Points, the Player's Point and Blot totals are reduced by the requested amount. Other rules may define additional methods of Erasing Blots. --------------------------- Proposal 1617 (Steve) AI=1, protoed Bring back EV scarcity Repeal Rule 1480. --------------------------- Proposal 1618 (Steve) AI=2, protoed Definition of 'Active Player' Amend Rule 1016 by appending to the first paragraph the sentence: "An Active Player is a Player who is not On Hold." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - elJefe, Assessor of Agora Nomic ****************************************************************** Dr. Jeffrey L. Caruso Information International -------V. Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.11]) by copper.ucs.indiana.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id CAA19984 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 02:28:13 -0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id AAA28543 for nomic-business- outgoing; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 00:18:47 -0700 Received: from mizar.astro.indiana.edu (mizar.astro.indiana.edu [129.79.160.43]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA28528 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 00:18:42 -0700 Received: from poverty by mizar.astro.indiana.edu with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0sWIXg-0001v4C; Thu, 13 Jul 95 02:18 EST Received: by poverty.bloomington.in.us (V1.17-beta/Amiga) id <3c6g@poverty.bloomington.in.us>; Thu, 13 Jul 95 02:15:26 EST5 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 02:15:26 EST5 Message-Id: <9507130715.3c6g@poverty.bloomington.in.us> >From: kelly@poverty.bloomington.in.us (Kelly Martin) To: nomic-business@teleport.com Subject: BUS: COE: Assessor's Report Sender: owner-nomic-business@teleport.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com I claim that the most recent Assessor's Report is in error, in that it listed several Players as having cast extra Votes on various Proposals, when in fact it is not legally permitted for any Player whatsoever to cast an extra Vote. Reasoning: Rule 206/3 allows a Player to cast "any votes in addition to an Player's first vote [...] by the casting of Extra Votes, as specified in other Rules." however, there is no Rule which allows a Player to "cast" "Extra Votes". a Player may (Rule 1442/5) "use" "Extra Votes" to cast "extra Votes". I believe that the capitalization is _very_ significant. that's not casting "Extra Votes", but rather "extra Votes". Extra Votes are a Currency, while extra Votes are Votes above and beyond the first Vote granted by 206. Rule 206 specifically requires that the casting of extra Votes may only be achieved by the casting of Extra Votes--and yet, as I have said, there is no procedure for casting Extra Votes. I am not even sure what it might mean to cast a Currency on a Proposal. Rule 754 cannot apply in this case, as 754 only applies when an error does not introduce an ambiguity, and I believe that a change of capitalization of the word "Extra" in Rule 206 would completely change the meaning of this Rule, so it seems quite clear to me that the error _does_ introduce an ambiguity of meaning. Since there is no legal means specified in the Rules for the casting of Extra Votes upon Proposals, no Player may cast a vote beyond the first granted by Rule 206. The Assessor's allegation that various Players did legally cast extra Votes is therefore in error. Therefore, the 1 extra Vote supposedly cast by elJefe, and the 3 extra Votes supposedly cast by Steve, on Proposal 1612, are invalid, and therefore this Proposal fails 4 to 7; and the 1 extra Vote supposedly cast by Swann on Proposal 1613 is invalid, and therefore this Proposal passes 8 to 3. Respectfully submitted this 13th day of June, Kelly Martin, Speaker -- kelly martin It is not by their choice that Scientologists continue to practice Scientology. -- Andrew Milne (a Scientologist), on alt.religion.scientology -------VI. Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.11]) by copper.ucs.indiana.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA12699 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:10:19 -0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id IAA27237 for nomic-business- outgoing; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 08:07:42 -0700 Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA27201 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 08:07:35 -0700 Received: from Camex.COM (Camex.COM [134.54.1.1]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA10416 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 08:07:02 -0700 Received: from zeus.Camex.COM by Camex.COM (4.1/SMI-4.2) id AA01474; Thu, 13 Jul 95 11:07:00 EDT Received: by zeus.Camex.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA05813; Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:06:21 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:06:21 -0400 >From: jlc@camex.Camex.COM (Jeff Caruso) Message-Id: <9507131506.AA05813@zeus.Camex.COM> To: nomic-business@teleport.com Subject: BUS: Re: Kelly's Claim of Error Sender: owner-nomic-business@teleport.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com Kelly responds to me: > Jeff> Rule 206 says that players may cast up to two votes. It says that > Jeff> votes beyond the first may be cast only by casting Extra Votes. > Jeff> Rule 1442 explicitly allows a player to cast extra votes provided > Jeff> they have enough Extra Votes. Rule 754 and Rule 116 should fill > Jeff> in any remaining gaps. > > 754 cannot be applied when an error causes a change in meaning. i > believe this is clearly the case. > > you haven't explain howed one can "cast" a Currency on a Proposal. if > you're saying that i can cast Currencies on Proposals, then i hereby > cast 5 Points on Proposal 1625. tell me, what the hell did i just do? I agree with you: this reading of Rule 206 is meaningless. Therefore the other reading (with the capitalization reading "extra Votes") is the only meaningful one, and Rule 754 applies. ... > Rule 1442 does not allow anybody to cast Extra Votes; it allows > Players to cast extra Votes. because changing the capitalization > changes the meaning, Rule 754 _does not apply_: Rule 754 can only be > used when an error does not introduce ambiguity of meaning. Rule 116 > doesn't apply either because Rule 206 is specific and exclusionary. Interesting claim: reading it two different ways changes the meaning, but one of the ways has no meaning. I don't think you can maintain both of these claims. But you needn't convince me, just the Courts. ... > Jeff> [...] > > not posted to the PF, so even if you are responsible, this has no > weight. You're quite right; I'm really messing up on these To: lines today, as when I posted a "private" reply to nomic-discussion. Sorry, Agorans! I re-iterate, in the Public Forum: Steve should rule on this ASAP. If by some wacky twist of the rules _I_ am the one responsible for ruling on this claim, then I DENY the claim for the reason cited. - elJefe ****************************************************************** Dr. Jeffrey L. Caruso Information International -- ============================================================ End of CFJ 791 ============================================================