From nomic-official-owner@teleport.com Tue Mar 28 01:53:06 1995 Return-Path: nomic-official-owner@teleport.com Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.11]) by Shamino.quincy.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA13772; Tue, 28 Mar 1995 01:53:02 -0600 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id XAA05874 for nomic-official-outgoing; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:58:16 -0800 Received: from mizar.astro.indiana.edu (mizar.astro.indiana.edu [129.79.160.43]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA05850 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 1995 23:58:10 -0800 Received: from poverty by mizar.astro.indiana.edu with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0rtWA9-0001VAC; Tue, 28 Mar 95 02:58 EST Received: by poverty.bloomington.in.us (V1.17-beta/Amiga) id <2i75@poverty.bloomington.in.us>; Tue, 28 Mar 95 02:49:47 EST5 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 02:49:47 EST5 Message-Id: <9503280749.2i75@poverty.bloomington.in.us> From: kelly@poverty.bloomington.in.us (Kelly Martin) To: nomic-official@teleport.com Subject: OFF: Final Judgement of CFJ 755 Sender: owner-nomic-official@teleport.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com Status: RO ====================================================================== FINAL JUDGEMENT OF CFJ 755 (Rule 1442/0 must be interpreted such that,...) ====================================================================== Final Judgement: TRUE Judgement of the Clerk of the Courts: TRUE Judgement of the Justiciar: TRUE Judgement of the pro-Speaker: FALSE Clerk of the Courts: Kelly Justiciar: Steve Speaker: elJefe Delegate: TAL Judgement: FALSE Judge: Vlad Eligible to Judge: Andre, Blob, Coren, Dave Bowen, Chuck, Elde, Einstein, Jeffrey, KoJen, Michael, Oerjan, Pascal, Steve, Vanyel, Vlad, TAL, Kelly, Swann Caller: JonRock Barred: elJefe Scorekeepor: Vlad receives 5 Points for speedy Judgement. Steve receives 3 Points for timely Judgement Kelly receives 3 Points for timely Judgement elJefe receives 5 Points for speedy Judgement Vlad must return 5 Points for being overturned ---------------------------------------------------------------------- History: Called Tue, 21 Mar 1995 15:53:28 -0500 by JonRock Assigned Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:30 UTC to Vlad Judged FALSE Wed, 22 Mar 1995 21:38:13 -0600 (CST) by Vlad --> Vlad receives 5 Points Appealed Thu, 23 Mar 1995 00:55:19 -0500 by JonRock Appealed Thu, 23 Mar 1995 00:31:36 -0600 (CST) by Vanyel Appealed Thu, 23 Mar 1995 20:39:35 +1000 (EST) by Blob Assigned Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:30 UTC to Steve as Justiciar Assigned Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:30 UTC to Kelly as CotC Assigned Sat, 25 Mar 1995 03:15 UTC to TAL as pro-Speaker Judged TRUE Sun, 26 Mar 1995 01:27:37 +1100 (EST) by Steve as Justiciar --> Steve receives 3 Points Judged TRUE Mon, 27 Mar 95 06:09:44 EST5 by Kelly as CotC --> Kelly receives 3 Points Judged FALSE Mon, 27 Mar 95 16:59:35 SET by TAL as pro-Speaker --> elJefe receives 5 Points --> Vlad loses 5 Points ====================================================================== Statement: "Rule 1442/0 must be interpreted such that, provided a player does not already possess 5 Extra Votes, that player can gain Extra Votes up to the number of proposals voted on in a single vote message sent to the Speaker, by voting ABSTAIN on any or all of them." I bar elJefe from Judging this statement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Arguments: If the voting player does not have 5 EVs at the time of a message to the Speaker containing more than one vote, then it is certainly the case that for any single vote contained in that message that the player does not have 5 EVs at the time of the casting of that vote. Thus any vote of ABSTAIN does satisfy the criterion for creation of an EV for that player, and that player will receive that EV when the results of the voting on that Proposal are published. QED. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- References: Rule 1442/0 (Mutable, MI=1) Extra Votes There is a Currency called Extra Votes. The Recordkeepor for this Currency is the Speaker. Possession of an Extra Vote entitles a Player to cast an extra Vote on a Proposal of eir choice. Extra Votes may be traded between Players, but they may not be owned by Groups. An Extra Vote is created for a Player whenever that Player casts a vote of ABSTAIN on any Proposal, and that Player does not already possess 5 Extra Votes. However, the Player does not receive the Extra Vote created for em by the casting of a vote of ABSTAIN on a Proposal until the results of the voting on that Proposal are published. An Extra Vote is destroyed whenever the Player who possesses it uses it to cast a Vote on a Proposal. Provided that they possess at least one Extra Vote, Players may use a maximum of one Extra Vote per proposal to cast an extra Vote on that Proposal. Extra Votes are cast in the same manner as Votes, as described in other Rules. ====================================================================== Judgment: FALSE Arguments: It is unfortunate that JonRock phrased his CFJ the way he did, because I think his general argument is sound. The problem is that a "single vote message" may contain votes on two batches of proposals distributed at different times. A perfect example would be the last two batches, which I voted on in a single message. The first batch's Voting Period will end first, possibly creating Extra Votes which would prevent the gaining of EV's from ABSTAIN Votes in the second batch. Thus JonRock's statement does not hold in all cases. Vlad ====================================================================== Judgement of the Justiciar: TRUE I overturn Judge Vlad's ruling and Judge that the Statement is TRUE. Vlad's argument misreads JonRock's Statement. Given the wording of that Statement, the issue is not whether there is any possible case where a Player *cannot* gain EVs as JonRock suggests, but whether there is any possible case where e *can* gain them. The point is, as JonRock says and I feel sure the other Justices will agree, that EVs under Rule 1442/0 are created at the time of voting, but not distributed until the the time of publication. Hence, a Player like Michael, who did as a matter of fact abstain on all 35 of the Proposals 1499-1533, does in fact receive 35 EVs, since at the time he voted he did not possess any EVs at all. ====================================================================== Judgement of the Clerk of the Courts: TRUE I judge this CFJ to be TRUE, overturning Vlad's original decision. Rule 1442/0 is clear in the matter of the timing of the creation and awarding of Extra Votes. The Vote is created when the Vote is Cast, and it is Game Custom that a Vote is Cast at the moment the Vote is received by the Speaker. However, the Extra Vote thus created is not given to the Player until the results are published, so a Player might have any number of Extra Votes in "abeyance" during the period between the moment e casts a Vote of ABSTAIN and the end of the Voting Period of that Proposal. These Votes are _not_ in the possession of the Voter (it is unclear exactly what Nomic Entity _is_ in possession of them, but I do not believe that this issue is of importance here). Therefore, the simple act of casting a Vote of ABSTAIN does _not_ immediately increase a Player's holding of Extra Votes, and therefore a Player is not limited in the number of such "virtual" Extra Votes e might accrue (as long as e does not have 5 or more actual Extra Votes). As an aside, I do not see how Judge Vlad's argument applies in any way whatsoever. As long as the vote is cast prior to the receipt of any Extra Votes which would cause the Player to have 4 or more actual Extra Votes, the Player does accrue the Virtual Extra Votes to which e is entitled, even if e does vote upon Proposals with differing Voting Periods in a single message. Kelly Martin Clerk of the Courts ====================================================================== Judgement of the pro-Speaker: FALSE Arguments: It seems that it all comes down to the word `possess'. Can the Player for whom the Extra Vote is created when e casts eir vote, be considered to *possess* that Extra Vote as soon as the time of its creation? This delegate-Justice, not particularly known for his fluency in English, is of the opinion that the answer is yes. It is certain that the Extra Vote created, exists between the time the Player casts eir Vote and the time the Voting Results are published. If it is not the Player who owns this newly created Extra Vote, who does? The Extra Vote is a Currency and according to Rule 611 `No non-player Nomic entity may own Currencies except as provided for in the Rules.' As the Rules are silent, I may exclude any other Nomic Entity as temporary possessor of the Extra Vote. Nevertheless, between the time of it's creation and the time of publication of the Voting Results the Recordkeepor of the EV is obliged to keep track of it, that is, attribute it to somebody? Logically, it is the Player which casted the Extra Vote, who possesses it. References: Rule 611/0 (Mutable, MI=1) Currencies: Who May Own Currencies Players may own any type of Currency. No non-player Nomic entity may own Currencies except as provided for in the Rules. The number of each type of Currency owned by each player or other Nomic entity must be non-negative, and must be an integer. This rule applies to Currencies in general, and thus defers to rules for specific Currencies. Rule 1442/0 (Mutable, MI=1) Extra Votes There is a Currency called Extra Votes. The Recordkeepor for this Currency is the Speaker. Possession of an Extra Vote entitles a Player to cast an extra Vote on a Proposal of eir choice. Extra Votes may be traded between Players, but they may not be owned by Groups. An Extra Vote is created for a Player whenever that Player casts a vote of ABSTAIN on any Proposal, and that Player does not already possess 5 Extra Votes. However, the Player does not receive the Extra Vote created for em by the casting of a vote of ABSTAIN on a Proposal until the results of the voting on that Proposal are published. An Extra Vote is destroyed whenever the Player who possesses it uses it to cast a Vote on a Proposal. Provided that they possess at least one Extra Vote, Players may use a maximum of one Extra Vote per proposal to cast an extra Vote on that Proposal. Extra Votes are cast in the same manner as Votes, as described in other Rules. ====================================================================== -- kelly martin I have been told that when a large group of people believe in a fantasy, it is called a culture. When a small group believes, it is called a cult. When two people believe in a fantasy, it is called love; and when one person believes, it is called psychosis.