>From mizar!brownvm.brown.edu!owner-belief-lBROWNVM.BITNET Mon, 20 Mar 95 22:34:26 EST5 Received: by poverty.bloomington.in.us (V1.17-beta/Amiga) id <2ers@poverty.bloomington.in.us>; Mon, 20 Mar 95 22:34:26 EST5 Received: from listserv.brown.edu by mizar.astro.indiana.edu with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0rqr2V-0001RuC; Mon, 20 Mar 95 18:39 EST Received: from stanley.cis.Brown.EDU (stanley.cis.brown.edu [128.148.176.55]) by listserv.brown.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA13904; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:41:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199503202241.RAA13904@listserv.brown.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:33:51 -0600 Reply-To: Personal Ideologies Discussion List Sender: Personal Ideologies Discussion List From: Ellen Ross To: Multiple recipients of list BELIEF-L Subject: Re[2]: Reasonableness It can be a dangerous thing -- if you're *too* reasonable, they make you List Manager. Oh, no. Anything but that! *Not* chopped liver. ====================================================================== JUDGEMENT OF CFJ 753 (The Move of putting Proposal 1479 up for vote was illegal.) ====================================================================== Judgement: FALSE Judge: Oerjan Judge: Einstein (deregistered) Eligible to Judge: Andre, Blob, Coren, Dave Bowen, Chuck, Elde, elJefe, Jeffrey, JonRock, Kelly, KoJen, Michael, Oerjan, Pascal, Steve, Swann, TAL, Vanyel Caller: Vlad Scorekeepor: Oerjan receives 5 Points for speedy Judgement (1h16m!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- History: Called Mon, 20 Mar 1995 19:21:03 -0600 (CST) by Vlad Assigned Tue, 21 Mar 1995 04:20 UTC to Einstein Defaulted Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:45 UTC by Einstein Assigned Thu, 23 Mar 1995 14:45 UTC to Oerjan Judged FALSE Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:01:18 +0100 (MET) by Oerjan --> Oerjan receives 5 Points ====================================================================== Statement: "The Move of putting Proposal 1479 up for vote was illegal." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Arguments: Arguments: Rule 1003 prohibits proposals "whose obvious and direct intent is to coerce a Player into voting against eir conscience." Now consider 1479. A Player is rewarded for voting ABSTAIN even if he/she would otherwise have voted FOR or AGAINST. Often failing to do so will result in a loss of political power relative to the other Players. This seems like coercion to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- References: Rule 1003/0 (Mutable, MI=1) No Coercive Proposals Proposals whose obvious and direct intent is to coerce a Player into voting against eir conscience are disallowed. Such a proposal is considered not to be "proposed in the proper way". This Rule takes precedence over other Rules which would otherwise allow such a shameful Proposal to be voted on. (*Was: 822*) [relevant text of Proposal 1479] An Extra Vote is created for a Player whenever that Player casts a vote of ABSTAIN on any Proposal, and that Player does not already possess 5 Extra Votes. However, the Player does not receive the Extra Vote created for em by the casting of a vote of ABSTAIN on a Proposal until the results of the voting on that Proposal are published. An Extra Vote is destroyed whenever the Player who possesses it uses it to cast a Vote on a Proposal. ====================================================================== Judgment: FALSE. Reason: The direct intent of Proposal 1479 is to create a Rule; It is only the intent of the Rule (thus indirectly of the Proposal) to coerce us to vote ABSTAIN. ====================================================================== -- kelly martin I have been told that when a large group of people believe in a fantasy, it is called a culture. When a small group believes, it is called a cult. When two people believe in a fantasy, it is called love; and when one person believes, it is called psychosis. From nomic-official-owner@teleport.com Fri Mar 24 22:19:29 1995 Return-Path: nomic-official-owner@teleport.com Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.11]) by Shamino.quincy.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA31477; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 22:19:27 -0600 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id UAA10679 for nomic-official-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:23:30 -0800 Received: from mizar.astro.indiana.edu (mizar.astro.indiana.edu [129.79.160.43]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA10621 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:23:09 -0800 Received: from poverty by mizar.astro.indiana.edu with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0rsNNN-0001UtC; Fri, 24 Mar 95 23:23 EST Received: by poverty.bloomington.in.us (V1.17-beta/Amiga) id <2h4g@poverty.bloomington.in.us>; Fri, 24 Mar 95 22:12:59 EST5 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 22:12:59 EST5 Message-Id: <9503250312.2h4g@poverty.bloomington.in.us> From: kelly@poverty.bloomington.in.us (Kelly Martin) To: nomic-official@teleport.com Subject: OFF: Concurring Opinion in CFJ 753 Sender: owner-nomic-official@teleport.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nomic-discussion@teleport.com Status: RO The following Concurring Opinion has been attached to CFJ 753. ====================================================================== Concurring Opinion (authored by Steve; joined by Michael and elJefe) Oerjan is of course correct to Judge the CFJ FALSE, but I feel constrained to dissent from his use of the word "coerce". I maintain that the intent, direct or otherwise, of Rule 1442, is not to coerce any Player to vote in any way, but rather to offer Players a different way of thinking about voting. Coercion is the use of force to compel action, and it different from the application of subtle pressures. No Player is being compelled by Rule 1442 to abstain on any proposals. They are being asked to consider the advantages that might accrue from abstaining on some proposals. There's a big difference. ====================================================================== -- kelly martin I have been told that when a large group of people believe in a fantasy, it is called a culture. When a small group believes, it is called a cult. When two people believe in a fantasy, it is called love; and when one person believes, it is called psychosis.