From - Sun Jun 17 11:19:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: from gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au ([131.170.42.16]) by farley.mail.mindspring.net (Mindspring Mail Service) with ESMTP id strnid.29mp.37kbi1c for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:14:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22479 for agora-official-list; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:56:38 GMT Received: from fw.serc.rmit.edu.au (fw-in.serc.rmit.edu.au [131.170.42.1]) by gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22476 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:56:35 GMT Received: (from mail@localhost) by fw.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA95621 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 00:56:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from biff.kiva.net(206.97.64.31) by fw.serc.rmit.edu.au via smap (V2.1) id xma095617; Sat, 7 Oct 00 00:56:02 +1100 Received: (qmail 19419 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 13:52:07 -0000 Received: from dial-178.bton.kiva.net (HELO klm02) (208.143.10.178) by biff.kiva.net with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 13:52:07 -0000 From: "Kelly Martin" To: "Agora Official" Subject: OFF: CFJ 1246: Judged FALSE Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:51:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-agora-official@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reply-To: agora-discussion@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: strnid.29mp.37kbi1c In this message: * Judgement by t entered The Bank incurs a debt of 18 Stems to t as Judicial Salary. ============================== CFJ 1246 ============================== Peekee has paid a Fee of 10 Stems since the 15th of September this year. ======================================================================== Called by: Peekee Judge(1): t Judgement: [made self ineligible] Judge(2): pTang Judgement: FALSE Judge selection(1): Eligible: t, Wes, pTang Not eligible: Caller: Peekee Barred: Crito Had eir turn: Blob, Chuck, Elysion, Kelly, lee, Murphy, Oerjan, Peekee, Steve Already served: - Defaulted: - By request: harvel, Michael, Taral On Hold: Palnatoke Zombie: Anthony, Harlequin, Novalis, Schneidster Judge selection(2): Eligible: pTang Not eligible: Caller: Peekee Barred: Crito Had eir turn: Blob, Chuck, Elysion, Kelly, lee, Murphy, Oerjan, Peekee, Steve, Wes Already served: - Defaulted: - By request: harvel, Michael, Taral, t On Hold: Palnatoke Zombie: Anthony, Harlequin, Novalis, Schneidster ======================================================================== History: Called by Peekee: 19 Sep 2000 Peekee bars Crito: 21 Sep 2000 Taral makes self ineligible: 21 Sep 2000 Assigned to t: 27 Sep 2000 t makes self ineligible: 28 Sep 2000 Assigned to pTang: 28 Sep 2000 11:06:45 -0500 Judged FALSE by pTang: 28 Sep 2000 12:36:35 -0700 ======================================================================== Caller's Evidence: >> * From: Alan Riddell * Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:44:17 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** I hereby transfer 10 Stems to the Bank for the purpose of Paying a Fee of 10 Stems. *** *** I would like to inform the relevant Offices that I wish to obtain 10 IATs. *** << ======================================================================== Caller's Arguments: The message sent clearly transfers 10 Stems for the purpose of Paying a Fee of that amount. Now,from Rule 1941 "Fees", "To Pay a Fee is to transfer the specified quantity of that particular Currency to the Bank if and only if that transfer is made solely for the purpose of Paying that particular instance of that Fee." Regardless of if the Fee existed at this point the Transfer would succeed if the Fee did exist. However since that time there has been reason for such a Fee to exist (either from the beginning of this message or from the quoted message) and even if the Transfer failed to Pay it when the Transfer was made I see no reason that it should not pay the Fee when the Fee does come into existence. If the Fee did not come into existence the question has to be asked when ever do the Fees come into existence. Most messages to Pay Fee are of the for "I Transfer XXX to do YYY." Though this is a lot more compact than what I did, I do not see as it is any different. A Transfer is made and then (if in the same sentence) a demand/wish is given. ======================================================================== Judge's Reasoning: The only Fee Peekee could possibly have Paid is the one defined in Rule 1912. Rule 1912 specifies a Fee of "an equal number of Stems" [equal to the number of ABCs the player wishes to obtain] By R1941, Peekee Paid that Fee iff all of the following are true: 1) Peekee stated publicly a number of some ABC e wished to obtain 2) Peekee transferred a equal number of Stems to the bank 3) The transfer was made solely for the purpose of Paying an instance of the Fee defined in Rule 1912 Conditions #1 and #2 are true. However, we have a sticking point on condition 3. Was the purpose of the transfer solely for the purpose of Paying an instance of the Fee defined in Rule 1912? This hinges on the ill-defined term "instance of a Fee." I find that the Rules do not speak adequately to this point, and will therefore use custom, commonsense etc. to guide my ruling. Commonsense and the best interests of the game dictate that Paying a Fee is an action that links a single payment to a single effect. The single effect is enabled by the payment. My fully expanded interpretation of Condition #3 is therefore: 3) The transfer was made solely for the purpose of enabling some single effect that the Rules specify is conditional upon transferring some amount of Currency to the Bank. This was NOT the sole purpose of the transfer, therefore Peekee did not Pay a Fee. ========================================================================