From - Sun Sep 3 08:23:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: from gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au ([131.170.42.16]) by hazard.mail.mindspring.net (Mindspring Mail Service) with ESMTP id sr39ni.1qp.37kb01i for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11275 for agora-official-list; Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:43:36 GMT Received: from fw.serc.rmit.edu.au (fw-in.serc.rmit.edu.au [131.170.42.1]) by gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA11272 for ; Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:43:34 GMT Received: (from mail@localhost) by fw.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA06395 for ; Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:18:25 +1100 (EST) Received: from 132.196.6.64.reflexcom.com(64.6.196.132) by fw.serc.rmit.edu.au via smap (V2.1) id xma006393; Sun, 3 Sep 00 12:17:58 +1100 Received: (from wesc@localhost) by fozzie.antitribu.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA48536 for agora-official@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 18:46:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wesc) From: Wes Contreras Message-Id: <200009030146.SAA48536@fozzie.antitribu.com> Subject: OFF: CFJ 1245 Judged FALSE To: agora-official@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (agora-off) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 18:46:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-agora-official@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reply-To: agora-discussion@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: sr39ni.1qp.37kb01i ============================== CFJ 1245 ============================== The Speaker has failed to initiate an Election for the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy as required by the Rules. ======================================================================== Called by: Taral Judge: Chuck Judgement: FALSE Judge selection: Eligible: Andre, Chuck, Elysion, Kelly, lee, Murphy, Oerjan, Palnatoke, Peekee, Steve, t, Wes Not eligible: Caller: Taral Barred: - Had eir turn: Blob Already served: - Defaulted: - Previously Defaulted: Harlequin, Sherlock By request: Crito, harvel, Michael On Hold: Palnatoke Zombie: Anthony, Harlequin, Novalis, Schneidster ======================================================================== History: Called by Taral: 24 Aug 2000 18:57:44 -0500 Assigned to Chuck: 24 Aug 2000 23:33:51 -0700 Judged FALSE by Chuck: 02 Sep 2000 01:25:22 -0500 Judgement Distributed: As of this message ======================================================================== Caller's Arguments: ======================================================================== Caller's Evidence: Excerpt from Proposal #4053 "The Grand Warden of the Oligarchy": Be it further resolved, that a Rule of Power 1 be enacted, with Title "The Order of Temporary Succession", reading: Whenever the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy has no Electee, and no Election for this Office is being conducted, the order of temporary succession is defined to be: the Payroll Clerk all other Officers in order of most recent registration all other Active Players in order of most recent registration except that the Speaker does not appear in this order. If at least one Player is in this order, then the first Player in the order of temporary succession shall become temporary holder of the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy; otherwise, the Speaker shall. In either case, the Speaker shall initiate an Election for the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy. This rule takes precedence over Rule 790. Whenever the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy has an Electee, this Rule shall be repealed. ======================================================================== Judge's Arguments: I judge this statement to be FALSE. Rule 1956 does indeed require the Speaker to initiate an Election for the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy. It also provides no explicit time limits within which this must be done. This is not the first time the courts have addressed the issue of actions required without any explicit time limits; however, the courts have been inconsistent on this issue. In CFJs 721 and 722, the Judges apparently ruled that a requirement for action, but with no time limit, did not have any time limit at all, either explicit or implicit, and thus an accusation that a person has failed to comply with such a requirement should never be found to be true. (Side note: I have been unable to recover CFJs 721 and 722 themselves, but this aspect is commented on in comments attached to CFJ 846, which was decided in January 1996, and was kindly reposted by Steve in February of this year. I have been in contact with Vanyel, who says he may have these, but is experiencing computer problems of his own and so cannot access them now.) More recently (early this year or late last year, I believe) a judge did rule that a required action with no explicit time limit did have an implicit time limit, in a case regarding a Referendum to Impeach, the results of which were not reported in a timely manner. I do not have the record of this CFJ on hand. I would suggest that this inconsistency ought to be resolved by legislation, providing a default time limit for any required action which has no other time limit specified. However, I believe the statement in this CFJ is FALSE, regardless of which interpretation is used. If a required action with no explicit time limit has no time limit at all, then clearly the Speaker has not violated Rule 1956 by not yet initiating the required election. If a required action with no explicit time limit does have some implicit (and entirely unspecified by the Rules, thus presumably left up the the judicial system) limit, the statement is still FALSE. Rule 451 requires that I determine the truth or falsity of the statement of this CFJ at the time it was called--Aug. 24 2000, 13:57:44 GMT. Little more than 3 days after Rule 1956 came into effect, Aug. 21 2000, 10:51:46 GMT. While people may dispute precisely what implicit limit should be placed on actions with no explicit limit, it seems highly absurd to me that such a limit should be less than 4 days! Indeed, even actions required to be done "as soon as possible" have a full week in which to be done; surely actions with no explicit limit can be done even more leisurely than those which are required to be done "as soon as possible". ======================================================================== Judge's Evidence: * Time CFJ 1245 was called (quoted at the top of this message) * Excerpts from message reporting passage of Proposal 4053, and thus, enactment of Rule 1956: >From: t >To: Agora official >Subject: OFF: Assessor's Report for Proposals 4053-4056 >Message-ID: > >Agora Nomic >Voting Report for Proposals 4053-4056 > >Date of last Report: 15 Aug 2000 >Date of this Report: 21 Aug 2000 > >Current Voting Mode: Public >=========================================================================== >Voting on Proposals 4053-4055 commenced: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:36:57 -0500 >Voting on Proposal 4056 commenced: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:26:12 -0500 >Voting on Proposals 4053-4055 concluded: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:36:57 -0500 >Voting on Proposal 4056 concluded: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:26:12 -0500 > >Num. Type Proposer AI Title RESULT F A - * >4053 Dem harvel 2 The Grand Warden of the Ol... PASSES 11 4 0 1 >4054 Ord Oerjan 1 General budgets PASSES 3 1 0 >4055 Ord Peekee 1 Respect for the dead FAILS/Q 3 0 0 >4056 Ord t 1 Fix the Stupid Bug PASSES 7 0 0 * Excerpts from Chuck's comments on CFJ 846: >CFJ 721 and 722 are of some interest here. They both address similar >statements, regarding the alleged violation by then-Registrar KoJen >in announcing the vacancy in a few Offices. Both Judges, Vanyel >and Down with 815!, ruled that because Rule 790 imposed no time >limit on the Registrar's duty, he could not be said to have violated >Rule 790. * Rule 1956 Rule 1956/0 (Power=1) The Order of Temporary Succession Whenever the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy has no Electee, and no Election for this Office is being conducted, the order of temporary succession is defined to be: the Payroll Clerk all other Officers in order of most recent registration all other Active Players in order of most recent registration except that the Speaker does not appear in this order. If at least one Player is in this order, then the first Player in the order of temporary succession shall become temporary holder of the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy; otherwise, the Speaker shall. In either case, the Speaker shall initiate an Election for the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy. This rule takes precedence over Rule 790. Whenever the Office of Grand Warden of the Oligarchy has an Electee, this Rule shall be repealed. History: Created by Proposal 4053 (harvel), Aug. 21 2000 * Rule 451 Rule 451/3 (Power=1) Determination of Judgement--Timing When a Judge is considering eir Judgement of a Statement contained in a CFJ, e shall make eir evaluation based on the truth or falsity of the Statement at the time the CFJ was issued. History: Created by Proposal 451 (Alexx), Sep. 10 1993 Amended(1) by Proposal 1412, Feb. 1 1995 Infected and Amended(2) by Rule 1454, Jan. 25 1997, substantial Amended(3) by Proposal 3452 (Steve), Apr. 7 1997, substantial (unattributed) ========================================================================