From - Fri Aug 25 21:43:03 2000 Status: R Return-Path: Received: from gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au ([131.170.42.16]) by fb04.eng00.mindspring.net (Mindspring Mail Service) with ESMTP id sqbu5l.2qvg.37kbi5a for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA03388 for agora-official-list; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 04:34:44 GMT Received: from fw.serc.rmit.edu.au (fw-in.serc.rmit.edu.au [131.170.42.1]) by gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA03385 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 04:34:39 GMT Received: (from mail@localhost) by fw.serc.rmit.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA10881 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:38:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from 132.196.6.64.reflexcom.com(64.6.196.132) by fw.serc.rmit.edu.au via smap (V2.1) id xma010879; Fri, 25 Aug 00 14:38:22 +1000 Received: (from wesc@localhost) by fozzie.antitribu.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28870 for agora-official@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wesc) From: Wes Contreras Message-Id: <200008250504.WAA28870@fozzie.antitribu.com> Subject: OFF: CFJ 1242 Judged FALSE To: agora-official@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au (agora-off) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-agora-official@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reply-To: agora-discussion@gecko.serc.rmit.edu.au X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: sqbu5l.2qvg.37kbi5a ============================== CFJ 1242 ============================== Palnatoke is Off Hold. ======================================================================== Called by: Palnatoke Judge: Andre Judgement: FALSE Judge selection: Eligible: Andre Not eligible: Caller: Palnatoke Barred: - Had eir turn: Blob, Chuck, Elysion, Kelly, lee, Murphy, Oerjan, Peekee, Steve, t, Taral, Wes Already served: - Defaulted: - Previously Defaulted: Harlequin, Sherlock By request: Crito, harvel, Michael On Hold: Palnatoke Zombie: Anthony, Harlequin, Novalis, Schneidster ======================================================================== History: Called by Palnatoke: 22 Aug 2000 23:13:56 +0200 Assigned to Andre: 22 Aug 2000 21:26:05 -0700 Judged FALSE by Andre: 23 Aug 2000 14:57:42 +0200 Judgement Distributed: As of this message ======================================================================== Caller's Arguments: In a message (dated 000731) to a-b with the Message-ID: <004d01bffb03$03282720$47812fc3@richardmayhew>, I wrote: "After that, I go On Hold until midnight between Friday the 11th and 12th of August." In a subsequent message (also dated 000731) with the Message-ID: <006101bffb1b$06553740$09942fc3@richardmayhew>, I mentioned forgetting to put 'Saturday' in between 'and' and '12th'. I take this to mean that I, on July 31st announced my coming Off Hold at the above-mentioned midnight, some 11 days later. As to the rule involved, R1016: 1) The Rule does not claim to be exhaustive, so there could very well be ways of coming Off Hold, not mentioned here. 2) The Rule has the format "A, when B". There is no mention of it happening *immediately* when B, nor is there any other indication of this meaning anything but "if B, then A", in this case: If I announce in a PF that I go Off Hold, then I do so. I have made such an announcement - I think. My message could be better worded. This second paragraph is probably, as Steve pointed out, rather rough-handed with the English language, and I guess such a twisting is not really in the best interest of the game. I still think the first paragraph holds, though. ======================================================================== Caller's Evidence: Rule 1016/11 (Power=2) Putting Oneself On Hold At any time, each Player shall either be On Hold or Off Hold. This status shall not be changed except as specified in the Rules. When a Player registers (or reregisters), e is Off Hold. An Off Hold Player becomes On Hold when e announces in the Public Forum that e goes On Hold. An On Hold Player becomes Off Hold when e announces in the Public Forum that e comes Off Hold. E may not do so until at least 96 hours after e last went On Hold. "Active" and "Inactive" are unambiguous synonyms for "Off Hold" and "On Hold", respectively. [CFJ 718: Because of Rule 1011, a Player may not be placed On Hold except as specified in the Rules.] ======================================================================== Judge's Arguments: The Caller has two arguments to argue for the correctness of this CFJ, which I shall address separately. First argument: > [Rule 1016] does not claim to be exhaustive, so there could very well > be ways of coming Off Hold, not mentioned here. This is close to being a false statement, and certainly close enough to invalidate it as an argument. Rule 1016 does state: > At any time, each Player shall either be On Hold or Off Hold. > This status shall not be changed except as specified in the > Rules. Thus, any method for coming Off Hold need not be mentioned in Rule 1016, but it must be mentioned in the Rules. At the moment, no Rule other than Rule 1016 specifies a method for becoming On Hold or Off Hold, so one can not go Off Hold (or go On Hold) in any other way than the one specified in Rule 1016. The second argument: > The Rule has the format "A, when B". There is no mention of it > happening *immediately* when B, nor is there any other indication of > this meaning anything but "if B, then A", in this case: If I announce > in a PF that I go Off Hold, then I do so. Even though the Rule does not _explicitly_ say that the going Off Hold happens immediately, implicitly that must be what it means. Even if we read the "when" as "if", commonsense tells us that if there is no other part of the Rule changing this interpretation, the going Off Hold happens at the time of the Announcement. Another argument is, if Rule 1016 does not specify _when_ a Player goes Off Hold (or On Hold for that matter), then what would stop _any_ such announcement to be delayed by an indeterminate period of time? Such a thing would lead to a highly indeterminate game state, which is certainly not in the interest of the game. ======================================================================== Judge's Evidence: ========================================================================