====================================================================== CFJ 1062 "Plato possesses at least 0.9 VTs." ====================================================================== Judge: Crito Judgement: TRUE Justices: Morendil (S), elJefe (C), Steve (J) Decision: SUSTAIN Eligible: Andre, Calabresi, Crito, elJefe, General Chaos, Kolja A., Michael, Morendil, Murphy, Oerjan, Steve Ineligible: Vlad (defaulted), Chuck (declined) Caller: Zefram (not a Player) Barred: On request: Vanyel On hold: Harlequin, Vir ====================================================================== History: Called by Zefram, 29 Oct 1997 17:16:03 +0000 (GMT) Assigned to Vlad Vlad defaulted Assigned to Chuck Chuck declines, Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:18:01 -0600 (CST) Dice roll: ChrisM (deregistered) Dice roll: Crito (eligible) Assigned to Crito, 12 Nov 1997 07:49:09 +0000 Judged TRUE, 13 Nov 1997 12:00:30 -0500 Appealed by Steve, 16 Nov 1997 19:36:23 +1100 Appealed by Michael, 17 Nov 1997 08:59:29 +0000 Appealed by Gen Chaos, 18 Nov 1997 12:43:12 -0500 Assigned to Justices Morendil, elJefe, Steve, 19 Nov 1997 07:41:58 +0000 Justice Morendil SUSTAINs, 24 Nov 1997 13:39:09 +0100 Justice Steve SUSTAINs, 25 Nov 1997 12:16:36 +1100 Justice elJefe: OVERTURN/FALSE, 25 Nov 1997, 09:30:40 +0000 ====================================================================== Reasons and Arguments of Judge: All rise for the right honorable Judge Crito, court is in session. Be seated. First, neither the original Transfer Order nor this CFJ make a clear specification as to which "Plato" they are referring. The CFJ does not even make it explicitly clear that the "Plato" of the CFJ is the same as the "Plato" of the Transfer Order. However, the timing of the messages, the amount of VTs specified in both messages, and common sense make an implicit link between the two "Plato"s and the court finds this to be sufficient evidence that the two messages refer to the same entity. Furthermore, previous references to "Plato" within Agora communications, the notoriety of one particular Plato, and the lack of indications in these messages to the contrary, lead this court to conclude that it is reasonable to assume the entity referred to as Plato in these messages is the long since deceased, Greek philosopher. It is the opinion of this court, then, that these two messages unambiguously refer to the Greek philosopher, Plato. Next, the court must decide what it means to "possess" VTs. Plato, being deceased, is incapable of possessing anything in the physical sense. It is tempting to return a judgement of FALSE simply on these grounds. Unfortunately, since VTs are an abstract entity, no one, living or dead, is capable of physically possessing any VTs. The Ruleset is replete with references to Players and entities "possessing" such abstract entities - Currencies, Kudos, Blots, etc. It is clear then that the condition of an entity "possessing VTs" is the condition that the Recordkeepor for VTs is required by the Rules to record the fact that VTs are owned by that particular entity. No physical possession or capacity for physical possession is required. How can such a condition be met? In the current context of this CFJ, the existence of a valid, successfully executed Transfer Order establishes the requirement for recording VT ownership per Rule 1598. So now this court must decide whether Zefram's message of Oct 29, 1997 which purported to transfer .9 VTs from emself to Plato was a valid, successfully executed Transfer Order. There is no dispute that Zefram possessed at least .9 VTs at the time e sent this message and that the format of the message was valid according to the specifications laid out in R1598. The validity of the Transfer Order then depends on the validity of the deceased philosopher Plato as a destination entity. This becomes the crux of the CFJ. The court notes that there is no definition of "entity" within the Rules. However, whatever definition is used, it is clear that a person falls within this definition. Does death deprive a person of personhood? No. Death is a property of a person, therefore any person, living or dead, must be considered an entity for the purposes of R1598. Does the property of being dead deprive a person of the capacity of possessing VTs? First, there is no statutory prohibition that prevents a person from possessing VTs based on any of that person's properties. Secondly, the death of a person, absent explicit legal prohibitions, cannot prevent the VT Recordkeepor from physically recording the possession of VTs by that person, nor can it prevent the Rules from logically requiring the VT Recordkeepor to make such a record. It is the opinion of this court that the Transfer Order issued by Zefram, asking that .9 VTs be transferred from emself to Plato, was valid and legally executed on October 29, 1997. This stems from the fact that there is no requirement for Plato to physically possess .9 VTs and there is no legal or physical impediment preventing the Assessor from recording the effects of this Transfer Order. Therefore, the statement of CFJ 1062 must be considered true. A judgement of TRUE is hereby entered. All rise. Court is adjourned. -- Crito ====================================================================== Decision of Speaker (as was) Morendil: SUSTAIN The name "Plato", as mentioned in the Transfer Order that is at the source of this debate, does not refer to a person whom any legal system currently in existence would recognize as having any rights or obligations. Were the same kind of dispute to arise in an RL court, the case would probably be dismissed on the grounds of "no controversy". No descendants of the deceased Greek philosopher, and more generally no legal or physical persons are currently charged with protecting any rights of morality or possession attaching to the estate of Plato. Therefore, in any dispute about Plato's supposed ownership of any conceivable kind of fictitious or actual possessions, nobody's rights are being violated, and there is nobody who might be said to have failed to perform any kind of obligation. Now, Agora is not RL, and things that might seem absurd in RL can be done in Agora for the sheer fun of it, that much is granted. However, even for the purposes of Agora, the above line of reasoning should alert us to the fact that Plato is, in all relevant respects, a fictitious rather than a real person. Transferring some amount of a Currency to, say, Homer rather than Plato would achieve identical results; the names "Homer" and "Plato" in such cases serve as mere labels used by a Player attempting to, jocularly as it were, divest emself of some of eir possessions without specifying a beneficiary. Transferring Currencies, on the other hand, to living persons such as Larry Wall or William Gates might conceivably have different effects. One may be more likely than the other to develop an interest for Agora, register to play, and affect game play based on the amount of Currencies transferred to em while not a Player. With this distinction firmly in mind, I conclude that attempting to transfer Currencies to a fictitious person should not be a legal Game Move, on the grounds that except as stipulated in the Rules, arbitrary legal fictions should not be allowed to be created to affect game play. Couching this in terms of Rule 1011, which seems to be the only Rule that could, or should, allow us to invalidate such attempts, is unfortunately a more difficult exercise. It is possible that the recently adopted term of "Nomic Property", as opposed to the older "Nomic Entity", does not adequately safeguard against precisely that kind of abuse of Rule 1598. I am therefore inclined to let Crito's Judgement stand. ====================================================================== Decision of Justiciar (as was) Steve: SUSTAIN I have often remarked before that the transition from a face to face game to game played over the Internet via the exchange of email messages brings with it a number of tricky conceptual issues which need to be worked out in the course of play. The treatment of the virtual objects referred to in the Rules, eg Kudos, Blots, Voting Tokens and Locations, is one such area. Over the years I have been a Player, I have developed a conceptual framework which I find congenial for thinking about such issues. The elements of that framework were in part articulated in my Judgement of the Appeal of CFJ 911. In that Judgement, I rejected a 'numbers on paper' view of Currency holdings and held that for the purposes of trying to determine what it means to own Voting Tokens, we should think of them as being analogous to poker chips or Monopoly money. In that Judgement, I used this principle to determine that debts are of a different nature to possessions, on the grounds that a different kind of poker chip or Monopoly note would be required to represent the existence of a debt. Here, the principle could have been applied to deliver the verdict that since Plato cannot possess poker chips or Monopoly money, having been dead for too long, he likewise cannot possess Voting Tokens. Had I been the Judge of the CFJ, I would happily have applied the principle and Judged the S tatement FALSE. However, I am not the Judge of this CFJ, but a Justice on the Board of Appeals. In my view, also developed over the years I have been a Player, this brings with it a different set of responsibilities. In particular, I have often stated my view that where a Justice disagrees with a Judge over a matter of taste, it is not the role of the Justice to impose eir own tastes. The role of a Justice, as I see it, is to correct errors of law where such have been committed, and to clarify the Rules where they are silent, inconsistent or unclear by articulating principles of 'probative usefulness', to borrow a phrase of Scott's. But where a Judge has already articulated such a principle, perhaps not to the liking of the Justice, but not actually mistaken in law, it is not the role of the Justice to overturn the principle articulated by the Judge in favour of eir own. The game is better served by encouraging differences of opinion to flourish. Judges, of course, are still required to consider game custom. Where a prior Judgement has established a principle of interpretation, and that principle has become well entrenched, I do not think a Judge can blithely ignore it and deliver a contrary interpretation, not at least without an excellent argument. Oerjan's Judgement that a Player receives a message when it enters eir 'normal technical domain of control' is, I take it, an example of a well established principle of this kind. I mention this in order to make the point that I do not consider my own Judgement in CFJ 911 to be well established as game custom in this way. As I began this Judgement by remarking, the treatment of the virtual objects mentioned in the Rules is a tricky matter, and a subject of ongoing controversy. Although in my Judgement of the Appeal of CFJ 911 I rejected the 'numbers on paper' view in favour of the 'poker chip' view, this Judgement did not, in my opinion, settle the matter for all time. Judge Crito is within his rights to hold and defend the view I rejected. He does not err in law in doing so; he merely differs from me in a matter of taste. I therefore rule to SUSTAIN Crito's Judgement. ====================================================================== Decision of the Clerk of the Courts: OVERTURN and judge FALSE I reject the conclusion of the original judge as contrary to common sense. In the ordinary meaning of the term, a dead person does not own property. Eir estate may legally possess things under certain circumstances, but the CFJ does not refer to Plato's estate, even if he has one. I find it puzzling that the other Justices appear to accept this, but defer to the original Judge's erroneous view. Deferrence should be shown where the differing interpretation is merely a matter of taste. But as Justice Steve has pointed out, a Judge is obliged to consider the Rules and Game Custom, and the Justices should overrule em when these are flouted. Common Sense also belongs on that list. (Rule 217) -- elJefe ======================================================================